090: Tips for Planning Accessibility, Texas Leaguer Mr. Oktoberfest

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In this episode, we chat about planning for accessibility and preview upcoming presentations for WordPress Accessibility Meetup coming in December 2024.

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Chris: Welcome to the Accessibility Craft podcast, where we explore the art of creating accessible websites while trying out interesting craft beverages. This podcast is brought to you by the team at Equalize Digital, a WordPress accessibility company, and the proud creators of the Accessibility Checker plugin. And now, on to the show.

Amber: Hey everybody, it’s Amber and I am here today with Steve.

Steve: Hello everyone.

Amber: And Chris.

Chris: Hey everybody.

Amber: And we are going to be talking about how you can plan for accessibility auditing and remediation. This episode is episode 90 in our odd numbering, where it’s every other number because we mix in meetup episodes, but if you want to get show notes for this episode, you can head on over to AccessibilityCraft.com/090 and you can get show notes and a full transcript for the episode. Of course we start every episode with a beverage.

Today’s Beverage

Amber: What are we drinking today, Chris?

Chris: We are trying out Texas Leaguer Mr. Oktoberfest. So this is a German Marzen style beer, which Steve and Amber are holding up there.

It’s got a like, I don’t know, is that like a game day font, like classic baseball league font at the top that says Texas Leaguer, and it’s got a guy with a baseball bat and full baseball uniform on the front. But this is a German Marzen style beer, which is going to be kind of like a lager and the, the thing to know about Marzen style beers is that they’re typically served in Oktoberfest celebrations.

It’s kind of like the Oktoberfest beer and they are generally brewed in March. Hence Marzen, which is, you can, you can hear the similarity there.

Amber: Is that German for March?

Chris: I don’t know if that’s exact German for March, but I think it’s in reference to that, I don’t remember my months anymore. I used to know German, I don’t anymore.

But they brew it in March. They hold it in cold storage until October and then they serve it. I don’t have giant frosty mugs for us and I’m not wearing lederhosen obviously, but we’ve got an Oktoberfest beer in October, so that’s fun.

Steve: Yeah, I looked it up and it means March beer.

Amber: Is that what that means?

Chris: Germans are very literal.

Steve: Yeah.

Amber: So it should be amber orange to deep reddish in color, moderate malt aroma with notes of toast and bread. That’s what a Marzen style beer is. So maybe I’ll like it, I don’t know. I like toast and bread.

Tell me, how’s it smell?

Steve: Like beer?

Chris: Yeah.

Amber: But it smells like good beer. What do you think?

Chris: Yeah.

Steve: It smells pretty good.

Chris: Yeah, it’s definitely, it’s definitely lager-ish. It gives me that kind of vibe. Although I will say having had a sip it’s a little more bitter than I expected it to be for this style of beer.

I expected a little more maltiness, a little more sweetness, and maybe the bitter to be a little bit more of an undertone or an underpinning. But I do appreciate the full body. I do appreciate how balanced it is.

Amber: I don’t. I don’t think it’s bitter at all.

Steve: Really? I do.

Chris: I’m getting more bitterness than I would expect from this kind of beer, but I don’t know. Maybe it’s the other beverages I’ve been having today. But no, I drank coffee earlier. I don’t know.

Amber: I mean, maybe I get a little bit on the end, but at the start, like it is sweet to me, it has a sweet, like, and it’s definitely not, dry or anything like some beers are. Like, it doesn’t feel overly hopped.

Steve: You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of being a young boy and seeing your dad’s beer can sitting there on the counter and you think, I wonder what that tastes like.

Amber: And then you try it and you think it’s disgusting.

Steve: Yeah, you try it and you’re like, whoa, I wasn’t expecting that.

Amber: Yeah, it does kind of taste like a beer that a dad would like to drink. It’s a dad beer. I don’t know.

Steve: It’s a dad beer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s all right.

Amber: So I’ve never had another Texas Leaguer beers or even seen them, so I don’t know if they all have baseball men on the front.

Steve: Yeah, I don’t know.

Amber: But it’s like, the wrong time of year for baseball, isn’t it? It seems weird to have a baseball guy on an Oktoberfest beer. That’s all I’m saying. I’m kindof judging their label illustrations.

Steve: Well, you got playoffs in the world series in October.

Amber: Oh, do you?

Steve: Yeah.

Amber: Obviously I follow sports so close.

Chris: Why, why isn’t the baseball guy and, and why isn’t he in Lederhosen with like the little, the little pointed cap? That’s like a missed opportunity, right?

Amber: Oh my gosh. You’re right. If they have baseball people on all of their beers, they could have them in different clothes. This could be a guy wearing German lederhosen.

You know what is funny? We went at WordCamp US to get ice cream with some friends. Steve and I did. And we went with Robert Windisch, and we were talking and joking around about, he is German, about lederhosen, and he’s like, you know, so few German people, that’s, that’s a very small, like Bavarian, like area.

Everyone thinks it’s German. And he’s like, that is not German. So if he listened to this, I’m sorry that we said we wanted the guy wearing lederhosen on the can, Robert.

Chris: Yeah. It’s like a subculture of a subculture there. All right.

Amber: What do you give it? Thumbs up, in the middle, or down?

Chris: I’m, I’m middle on this one.

Amber: You’re in the middle?

Chris: Steve’s, Steve’s pitching down there.

Steve: I’m pitching down. It’s, it’s bitter. It’s hard. It reminds me of my dad’s beer.

Amber: I’m kind of tilting up. I think I might get it again. I mean, I like the taste of it. I still am sad about their can design. And I feel like that’s part of it. Like I, I like, I, as you know, I, when I suggested we buy the pretty pink strawberry beer that actually tastes not very good, I will pick beverages for their labels. You can totally get me with a cool design, so that’s what’s kind of keeping me in the middle.

Accessibility Planning Tips

Amber: I thought that it would be good today to talk a little bit about how people can plan for accessibility audits and remediation. And so that is today’s topic. It is the end of the year almost. Can you believe it? And this is the time of year when we at least internally are starting to think about our budgets.

And in case you don’t know this about us, we’re, we, we like write smart goals for our company every year. Like we’re very like planning oriented, maybe too much so sometimes, I don’t know. But so I thought it would be interesting to have a chat. I don’t think we’re going to have as long of a, of an episode on this because we’re planning some meetups in the month of December to follow up on a lot of these topics.

So we’re hoping to maybe get people interested to come to our, Meetups in December on December 5th, Thursday, December 5th, Chris is going to be talking about budgeting for accessibility. And on Monday, December 16th in the evening, I’m going to be running a goal setting workshop that is hopefully going to be interactive.

So around accessibility. But we wanted to sort of lead into that conversation.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, now’s the time. And especially with things that are on the horizon for 2025 that I know we’ve mentioned a lot here. And if you follow us anywhere on social media, you know about the EU Accessibility Act, which is on the way with a June 2025 cliff for that regulation taking effect in all EU member states.

I know that that’s front of mind for a lot of people and kind of the ripple effect of that coming out to businesses globally. So it seemed like an appropriate time to tackle this for sure. And you want me to talk about budgeting and planning?

Amber: Yeah. Well, so Chris, what are some things that people have to think about when they’re trying to figure out their budget?

Can you give us a little teaser of what you might be talking about in your Meetup talk?

Chris: Yeah, I’m still working on the talk and kind of fleshing things out, but I do have a general outline of what I want to cover. And what I’m going to try to do is, is try to take how I think about budgeting just in a broader context and apply that to accessibility specifically, so that organizations can try to plan around this.

And I think at a high level, what I’m going to start with is talking about the products or services that you might need to procure, what those are, what the different categories are, right? Because you have automated testing, you have manual testing, you have user testing, and they’re all very distinct. I’m not going to take a deep dive into any of those because obviously this is about budgeting, but people should understand and maybe be able to kind of like categorize the types of expenses that they might find themselves making.

And I will talk a little bit about what I feel in my own lived experience are typical costs for these things. And what to me personally, as someone in the accessibility space feels like is too much versus too little, where you might start to get a little bit suspicious, maybe, and start to ask some questions about the quality that you’re getting. And I’m going to give that information, which people can take or leave, right?

Because I know the price conversation is always hard but for people who have no perspective on what things should cost, I’m hoping to at least give them a, a range, right? Of what to expect. And then I think once people understand the types of things that they might need to be procuring and why and what they cost typically, we can start to break out those costs, start to define what they are.

We can start to define whether costs are more fixed or more variable. So is it something that you’re paying a flat rate for every year or month, regardless of how much you utilize it? Or is it something that if you do certain activities more or less in your business that will basically create a increased or decreased variable cost for what you’re spending on accessibility.

And we’ll talk a little bit about what those business activities might be, right? So if you’re for instance, and this is a very basic example, but if you’re putting out a whole lot of video and audio content, you have a variable cost if you’re doing this responsibly of paying for a transcription or captioning services.

And so the more video and the more audio you put out there, the greater amount you will need to invest in transcription and captioning costs. And then we can all, we’ll also talk about what sorts of business activities have been shown to reduce accessibility costs overall.

So things like training your personnel to reduce the incidence of potential accessibility issues, which can reduce your remediation costs over time, reduce the need for frequent audits and testing. And then partnering with qualified software and agencies, because obviously if you purchase a bunch of inaccessible software solutions that then results in a bunch of additional remediation cost, that obviously is a business activity.

If you, if you procure responsibly and do some vetting up front, that will reduce your accessibility costs in the longterm. And the, the main thing that I would want to convey with, with any of this is and what I’m trying to get people to start thinking about is that if there is no, if there is no financial plan, there will be no meaningful action around accessibility in your company or on the part of your team.

Steve: Yeah, very cool. Thanks, Chris. So Amber, how, how do you approach priorities for auditing and remediation?

Amber: Big question, right? So on the auditing front, and I think Chris will probably get into this more with some of the budgeting too, is we’re always talking about trying to identify unique pages or unique components, and then knowing that you want to try and audit all of those.

So it’s not that you necessarily have to have a manual review of every single page on a website. But you definitely want to have a manual look at all of the major components, like accordions and tabs and all of those sorts of things. I think, you know, to Chris, what you were saying about if you have videos, that can really increase your budget. You know, another thing that comes to mind on this from a priority standpoint or even a budgeting standpoint is documents.

So we have a lot of nonprofits and like public universities where they’re publishing meeting agendas and meeting minutes every month, or sometimes multiple times a month, if they have multiple committees where they have a requirement to do that.

And like, that’s a whole nother thing that you have to think about. But then, but then there’s a question of, can it be a webpage instead of a document, right? Like, a lot of that kind of stuff. And, and then from a remediation standpoint, once you’ve figured out where the problems exist, of course, we’ve talked about this a lot in other episodes that you want to think about doing global things first, like make sure the navigation works.

Looking at really important pages. So any pages that are related to accessibility or ADA compliance, or like if you’re a university and you have a page where students can go submit a form to request a test accommodation, something like that. Well, of course you want that form to be accessible. So thinking about what pages are really important for people with disabilities as a priority. Maybe bottom of the funnel up, we talked about this in our WooCommerce episode where you want to know that your checkout works, your cart works, you’re at right, like where conversions happen. Those are really important pages. So those, those are kind of some of the things that we think about from priorities. I don’t know if I, am I missing anything? Do either of you have things that you’d add on the priority standpoint?

Steve: No, I think you covered it.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, another way to put it right is, is start at the end of your user journey and work backwards. Sometimes that, that works really well to kind of define some priorities, right? But it’s not, that’s not a universal truth either because sometimes starting at the beginning is really good. Like if there’s a page on your website that attracts 95 percent of the traffic, you want to make darn sure that that page is accessible, right? Otherwise people will never get to the end.

Steve so auditing is, is the first half, right? What are some things that you think we need to have set up from a dev perspective on remediation to do that responsibly and to minimize, you know, explosions?

Steve: Yeah, we want to minimize explosions of code. So normally when things get handed off over to the, to the dev, dev team, we go through a little bit of a short kind of discovery ourselves. So, in the onboarding, during our onboarding process for these projects, all the information normally gets collected in regards to, where their website is hosted and, FTP credentials or GitHub or Bitbucket credentials and things like that.

So I normally take that stuff and at first I kind of just do an assessment, right? I want to look at the code. I want to see where it’s at. Just kind of see how they have their website set up. Sometimes they’re using a custom theme. Sometimes they’re using page builders. Sometimes they’re using, a pre built theme. Things like that. Do we need to, do we need to create a child theme to be able to edit this . So things like that.

So after assessment, normally what we’ll do is we’ll start to integrate the tooling and sometimes this is already done because Amber will use this , on the auditing side. Installing our plugin, the Accessibility Checker Because we don’t just create an accessibility tool, we actually use it. So we’re using it in our audits and remediations. So we ensure that that’s installed and that it’s up and running. I will assess the, the version controlling that set up or the lack of version controlling that’s set up. So…

Amber: I’m curious, Steve. What percent do you think of our customers have come to us that already have some sort of version control?

Steve: It’s high. I think it’s it’s definitely high. I’d say…

Amber: You think most of them do? Because I was actually thinking most of them don’t.

Steve: I mean, 60-70 percent maybe? Around there. Yeah, I think There hasn’t been a whole lot that haven’t. We recently had one that does not have any version controlling set up.

Amber: So that was like the first thing you had to do before you could even start fixing anything.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And actually we’ve had, we’ve had a couple, so maybe you’re right. Maybe it’s 50-50. I’ll go down, I’ll, I’ll relent a little bit and go down the 50-50. So, but, but two, like sometimes clients, like one client that came to us, they did not have a version controlling system, right. And they’re not developers.

They actually haven’t been actively developing their product themselves. They had another company doing it. So you’re kind of getting a handoff from that company. We actually had a little bit of back and forth with that that previous company that they worked with to make sure that there are certain things that had to be removed that, that they use tooling that they had. So you kind of have to assess every situation or you have to set up yourself and we’ve recently had another customer come to us with a audit remediation where they don’t have version controlling.

But they are developing it in their own kind of workflow, their own unique workflow. So a lot of times in cases like that, if it’s not there, we’ll set it up just for our own use and, and then we’re communicating with the client what our workflow is going to be. That way everybody has a clear understanding what the workflow is.

If there’s development that’s done outside of what we’re doing. It has to be merged, so that we don’t start overriding each other’s code and things like that. So, version controlling is very important for many reasons, and it’s very integral to our development workflows and then testing environments.

So we, we don’t just cowboy code on the production website. So we’re wanting to ensure that the client has a development staging site. If they don’t have a development staging site, we’ve, we’ve done cases where we will create on our own server, we’ll create a, a development staging site so that we can do full testing.

So normally, a task will come in, it’ll get remediated, then it gets reviewed again to make sure that it is remediated correctly, and then it gets approved to go to the client’s production server. And then of, of course, in any process like this, it’s just collaborative tools, with your collaborative tooling.

And in our company, we use Basecamp a lot on the project management side. And like I just spoke, it’s going to be some sort of version control as well to manage pull requests and code related things such as GitHub or Bitbucket.

Amber: Yeah, I think that the project management tool is sort of an interesting thought.

You know, that’s something that if you’re working in house at a university or a business or whatever, you may not actually have any sort of project management tool that you’re utilizing. Most agencies do, but if you’re not someone who works in an agency and you’re like an in house developer and you’re trying to plan for auditing and remediation, figuring out project management, I think is going to be maybe a hidden cost that you wouldn’t even think of.

But, you know, cause are you just going to use spreadsheets? You could we frequently deliver audit reports and spreadsheets and we’ve had some customers where we’re not actually doing the dev, we’re only auditing and they just use the sheet to track what they’re doing. But we’ve had others where they take that and they go put it into their project management system.

But I think there’s a lot of little things that are important before you can even really get going on fixing stuff is figuring out what is your process.

Steve: So for us, I mean, to shed a little bit of light on, on Basecamp and how we utilize it and audit remediations. We definitely, we’re using like a Kanban board, right? And, and things come in and they get you know, they get worked a little bit. I can pull it up. So I’m, I’m not, I’m not speaking incorrectly, but they get, they get pulled up and they go into like a pending where, where like Amber can review what’s been remediated and then kind of create some dev notes related to that. And, and then they move along and through a process and in that process that it involves the, the project manager, the, the developer, and then even the client as it moves along and gets approved for production.

Chris: Yeah, I remember because Kanbans was something that only got added to Basecamp maybe a year ago, maybe a little longer and I remember before that it was a lot more challenging to manage this process, and I feel like once we were able to implement Kanbans in a client visible area thanks to Basecamp, that, that was kind of transformative for us and moving things through a step by step process and having the different touch points with different people it really helped.

Amber: Yeah. You know what we can do in the show notes, we should link over to the talk that, I gave with the team from Highland Community College, which is on the Equalize Digital blog. That video actually has a screenshot of a scrubbed version of one of our Kanban boards.

Steve: Oh, yeah.

Amber: So if anyone is interested, and I talked a lot more about like setting them up because they were one who came to us and they had had a developer who had built their site for them.

And was sort of maintaining it, but that developer even wasn’t using version control. So they didn’t have version control. They didn’t have a staging site even. We had to create a staging site. So I talked a lot about that in that presentation that I did with Highland. So maybe we can throw that in the show notes for people.

So I’m curious, Chris, everyone, I think always wants to know this. How long will it take? What do you tell people? I want to know what you tell people in sales conversations about how long it will take. And then I think maybe we should have a conversation about real life.

Chris: I don’t know if I should say this publicly, but I don’t think I’m particularly good at it, but I, I know I take solace in the fact that I think most people are bad at predicting how long things will take.

I try to, I try to use math. I try to use, I try to look at historical data of how long things took us previously and how long, like based on the inputs, what it should take to produce the outputs, right? So when we’re, when I’m estimating a timeline for audits or remediation, I’m taking the base value of the, the number of unique, either if it’s a website, right, the number of unique pages that have unique layouts or unique functionality, or if it’s a web application, it’s actually even more granular.

It’s the number of unique pages, components, or even variations of components, right? So that’s kind of the inputs. And then based on those things, I know, law of averages, how long it should take us to analyze them. And then based on a coefficient of how many WCAG failures I can find with an automated testing tool on the existing live version of whatever it is we’re going to be evaluating. And keyboard testing, just some very quick keyboard testing.

I basically will create a multiplier for what I think remediation will take, but you typically, the remediation starts at a baseline of slightly more than it takes to do the audit. And then I add more if I can find more, issues through automated testing, because that’s a clear indicator that there might be deeper issues and, and more that gets identified. And it’s an imperfect system, but it’s maybe one step removed or two steps removed from throwing a dart at a wall.

I, I try to, I try to predict with math and then I try to, I think where, where I probably struggle the most is not on how long it takes as much as predicting what our own internal capacities are. Adequately, and, and sometimes projects just stack up and this is just the reality of agency life. And then we don’t want our customers to feel that.

So we all work extra, right? And that produces stress. And so I think I have some more thinking to do on this and we’re look, we’re actually evaluating right now. And this is me just being, like operate in public, totally transparent. We’re actually looking at tools right now to help with better capacity planning.

Amber: Like Gantt chart tools, right?

Chris: Yeah, like Gantt chart tools and things of that nature to help us better plan for demand versus capacity and making sure that we’re, we’re avoiding those nights and weekends as much as we can, unless some unknown or unforeseeable thing happens. Like, I don’t know, natural disaster or an outage or, or whatever, right?

Or an illness. But I don’t, I don’t know. I started somewhere and I ended up somewhere else, but the, the, the short answer here is predicting realistic timelines is hard and there’s a lot of variables and I think a more important thing to master is having routine check-ins and health checks on the timeline and constantly communicating openly and setting updated expectations as things evolve.

And that’s particularly true for an audit where we’re basically giving someone an estimate and we don’t actually know what all the problems are. And this is something that I have very clear upfront conversations with people about. It’s like, I’m, I’m, I’m giving you an estimate based on law of averages of how long it will take this website to be audited and remediated, but I don’t actually know because I don’t actually know what the problems are.

So we’re going to have until the audit is done and we’re going to have monthly conversations and monthly check ins and We’re going to tell you if we need more resources. We’re also going to tell you if we need less resources, right? And generally people are receptive when they understand and if they don’t understand the the comparison I usually make is:

You know, like you’re you’re having me remodel your entire home, but I don’t know what’s in the walls. I don’t know where the plumbing and wires are. I don’t know if there’s a leak here or a wiring fault there or a foundation that’s about to collapse here. And this is the exact same situation for us. And generally people are like, oh, I get it. Right?

Steve: Yeah, to that, since estimating can be quite challenging. So what are some areas where, where we’ve actually seen the real life scenario play out, right? Where have we seen that clients have gotten, these slow down on some of these audits and remediations?

Amber: Well, I always love when we put accessibility checker on a website and we do a full site scan and it comes back and it says there are 785 PDFs on this website.

And then we get to go to the customer and we’re like, hey, what is your plan for all your PDFs on your website? Can we get rid of any of them? That in Accessibility Checker, you can get a a table that just shows all the PDFs that exist, and I can, I copy and paste that.

At some point we’re going to have a CSV export, but right now I copy and paste it. It copies and pastes into a Google Sheet very well, I will tell you that. And, and I’ll put it in a sheet. And I will say to them, all right, go through this and mark your PDFs as either keep/remediate, archive, or delete.

And that is definitely an area where things can slow down. If they end up saying a whole bunch needs to be remediated, we don’t personally do accessibility remediations on documents. So we have partners we can connect them to for that.

We’ve also had interesting things where it was an organization, even sometimes large organizations, where someone, only one person had access to a thing like YouTube or their Vimeo account or whatever, none of their videos had captions and also, no one knew how to get access to it. And it took them like months to figure out how to get access so they could even add captions to their videos.

Like, like those are weird things that definitely slow things down. I, I feel like I have struggled a little bit too with sometimes we’ve run into, and we have one right now where it is an, what I consider an old school ACF built website.

Steve: Yeah. Yeah.

Amber: Advanced Custom Fields, flexible content areas. And so everything, I, and Steve and I have talked about this so much. Everything requires a dev change. There’s a lot, as much as so many people hate the block editor, the block editor can put a lot of control into a content specialist’s hands, or even me. Like, I could just go in and be like, I’m going to rebuild these sections with different blocks. And and, and I don’t know, like, that’s, that’s harder because now it’s like, okay, now a dev has to do it because I literally cannot edit this thing.

And maybe that’s a, a decent place is like one of our last questions is like, where’s this line when you’re planning for an accessibility audit or remediation? Where’s the line between you should fix it or you should just start over. And I’m curious what you think that line is, Steve.

Steve: Well, geez, like there’s a line, there’s definitely a line there, right? And, and, and we’ve had, we’ve had internal discussions about this. And, and that’s where things get difficult. Amber’s brain is very oriented towards the best solution possible, right, for the client.

Amber: I want to make it, not to interrupt you, but I want to, like, I’m like, if we can fix accessibility and also make their website easier for them to manage, that feels like a huge win.

Steve: Yeah, totally. When it comes to audit and remediations, I think there’s, there’s a way that a project enters into our ecosystem, right? And the way that we were approached to do this audit and remediation that in some sense that we kind of just have to honor the way that it, it, it came to us.

While I do think that there is a threshold, I think even with this specific scenario that Amber mentioned, I think there is a place where we would. We would say, okay, we’re definitely, this is taking a lot longer to remediate. Like we’re, we do fix we’re, we’re do like fixed hours, a certain number of hours a month.

So what happens is if it takes longer, it ends up taking more months, which, it gets drawn out and, and it doesn’t feel like as much progress is being made as, as we would like it to be made. But then again, if it, if it would have to go back to, being a rebuild, right? Then that would, then that would go back to Chris and that would be, Chris would have to have a whole conversation and start a whole different discovery process to get that project rolling.

And and, and there could be limitations between the organization’s budgets and the way the money was allocated to do certain things and objectives that they’re trying to meet with these, with these audits. So, so yeah, I think there’s a definite line, but at the same time, can we remediate an old website?

Yes. Is it a little difficult from a development standpoint sometimes when you get in there and you do have to make decisions sometimes you have to make, well, this section, this, say it’s an ACF flexible section, it’s not really built great. We can kind of go in here and try to hack it around and move things around and get it to be accessible, or should we just redo that whole section?

You know, like you have to make, you have to make decisions like that.

Amber: I think if you’re someone who’s trying to plan this for yourself and you’re trying to figure out what is that line? Should I just redo it? Like one of the things that I would advise for people is I would also think about when was the last time your website was redesigned.

If your website’s five plus years old, you know, is it actually achieving the SEO goals that it needs to achieve? Is it, is it funneling people where they need to go? Is it easy for your team to edit? Or, I mean, this, this same customer actually said to me, I was on a, like a Squarespace or Wix, I can’t remember, but like one of those ones, and she’s like, and it was so much easier than our website to edit.

You know, I think there’s definitely a line where if your website is also causing you other pain points outside of accessibility, then maybe it makes more sense to budget for a rebuild that mandates accessibility in the scope versus just trying to fix. But then also sometimes there’s timeline things.

Amber: And it’s, and if you need to get accessible fast, then maybe remediation is the best way to go.

Chris: I got nothing to add to that. That’s great.

Steve: That’s great. Well, I think that’s it, right? And our our March beer?

Chris: Yeah. Our March beer in October.

Amber: Oktoberfest. Yeah, it’s pretty good.

Steve: Still bitter. Sorry.

Amber: Okay, I’m liking it. Drink more of it. Then you’ll like it better.

Steve: Yeah, yeah. I bet I will.

Amber: This is the way every beer works. Which doesn’t say much for them, does it? No, I, I, I think this is obviously a, a short little teaser episode. We’re, we’re going to call it that. I would encourage everyone to come to our December meetups where we’re going to talk more in detail about budgeting.

We’re going to have an interactive, like goal setting workshop for 2025. I do think that there are ways that this can be done in, you know, it doesn’t have to be scary. I know we ended on, maybe you should rebuild your website. I don’t, it doesn’t have to be that way, right? And, and that’s something we’re hoping to do and talk about more in December.

Chris: All right. See y’all on the other side.

Steve: See you guys.

Amber: Bye.

Chris: Thanks for listening to Accessibility Craft. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe in your podcast app to get notified when future episodes release. You can find Accessibility Craft on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more. And if building accessibility awareness is important to you, please consider rating Accessibility Craft 5 stars on Apple Podcasts.

Accessibility Craft is produced by Equalize Digital and hosted by Amber Hinds, Chris Hinds, and Steve Jones. Steve Jones composed our theme music. Learn how we help make thousands of WordPress websites more accessible at EqualizeDigital.Com.