In this episode, Steve and Chris interview Kevin Andrews about his experience working in the accessibility trenches for many years.
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Chris: Welcome to the Accessibility Craft Podcast, where we explore the art of creating accessible websites while trying out interesting craft beverages. This podcast is brought to you by the team at Equalize Digital, a WordPress accessibility company, and the proud creators of the Accessibility Checker plugin, and now onto the show.
Steve: Hello everyone. Welcome back. This is Steve. I’m here today with Chris.
Chris: Hey everybody.
Introducing Special Guest: Kevin Andrews
Steve: And today we have a very special guest joining us. Welcome, Kevin.
Kevin: Hey, how’s it going everyone? I’m Kevin Andrews in Washington DC.
Steve: Awesome. Great. So Kevin, we’re excited to have you here for everyone tuning in. At quick note that this is episode 116 and you can find show notes and the full transcript at AccessibilityCraft.com/116. Kevin, can you introduce yourself for the listeners?
Kevin: Yeah, so my name is Kevin Andrews, as I said, I am a certified web accessibility specialist. I am blind screen reader user, and I’ve been doing accessibility work for almost a decade primarily, excuse me, primarily in higher education.
So, yeah. And when I’m not doing accessibility or trying to advocate for a more inclusive world, which is a full-time thing I like spending time outside tandem cycling, hiking, cooking, and traveling.
Steve: And you’ve had some recent international travels, correct?
Kevin: Yeah, so I recently went to Spain and Morocco, so, I went to Madrid. And then why Morocco? Because it sounds, it’s close and it’s there. And then went to Barcelona and met up with my parents. They kind of did their own thing and then we met up in the back half of the trip. So it, it was wonderful. And then but never long enough. The food was great. I yeah, I enjoyed it a lot.
Today’s Beverage
Chris: International travel is an amazing experience and it’s really cool that you were in Morocco which is not only known for its amazing food, but also for its teas, including mint tea. But that’s gonna be my segue.
So, today we are also trying a tea, which is Drink Weird Organics White Peach Oolong Tea. It’s tea in a can. I’ll hold it up here for our viewing audience. But it’s it’s got Weird Tea and large white letters on the front and a illustrated picture of a three eyed rabbit kind of smiling directly at you.
Very interesting. And on the front of the can, it says White Peach Oolong Tea plant-based with organic caffeine added. So this tea should have maybe a little bit more of a caffeinated kick than a standard tea. Which it’s afternoon where I am. So I’m definitely at about the point where I’m feeling the need for some additional caffeine.
But we can crack these open if everybody’s ready. Cool. And we can take some initial sips here and see what we got.
Steve: Alright.
Kevin: I love how we all do it at the same time.
Chris: Yeah, you gotta get that can crack on the mic for sure, if you can. So this is all organic ingredients and cane sugar and some different juices. So it says it has apple juice, lemon juice and then the organic caffeine added. So hopefully it’ll be, hopefully it’ll be good. Some clean drinking for us today. Oh, I get the peach on the nose. I’m definitely smelling peach.
Kevin: It’s definitely like peach. You definitely, I kinda notice like citrusy kind of thing going on. Definitely feels very, it makes me think of Summer. Yeah, which is quite fitting. Especially here, it’s gonna be like 85 tomorrow, so.
Chris: Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah. We’re hitting similar we’re hitting similar temperatures just north of Austin, Texas. Steve got to experience snow a couple weeks ago.
Steve: Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin: Oh boy.
Steve: But it’s finally warming up, up here.
Kevin: Good. Nice.
Chris: And we sent 12 packs of these, so hopefully they taste good.
Kevin: Yep. Yes.
Chris: ‘Cause it’s cheaper than sending in individual cans when doing it with Amazon.
Steve: No, I mean, my initial take is that it’s good. I mean, like it’s. It’s not offensive in any way. It’s just a smooth, easy to drink tea. Right?
Kevin: Yeah, I would agree with that. I really like the, I’ve always been like a peach fan, anyway. You really have to like peach though. I feel like otherwise you’re like, Ooh. Like it’s, but yeah, I would agree with that. It’s very clean. It goes down nicely. Nothing. It doesn’t hit the wrong way. It just, it’s nice, it’s easy.
Chris: Yeah.
Kevin: You’re looking for a boost.
Chris: A tea that lives up to its promises. Right?
Steve: Right.
Chris: It says it’s gonna be a peach tea with a little sweetness. And that’s exactly what you get.
Kevin: Yes.
Chris: If you don’t like peaches, don’t get it.
Steve: Doesn’t say that.
Chris: No, it doesn’t.
Steve: That’d be a great tagline.
Chris: That would be a great tagline. If you don’t like peaches, don’t buy this peach tea. Oh man.
Steve: No, it’s good. It, like I could see given, you know, the Spring weather that we’re all talking about, like mowing your grass and sitting on the porch afterwards having one of these cold ones. Yeah, that’d be good.
Chris: Yeah, absolutely. So, we’re gonna do our standard, very scientific thumbs up, thumbs in the middle, thumbs down.
Kevin, happy to start with you. What is your general impression of…
Kevin: Yeah, thumbs up. Thumbs up for me.
Chris: Alright, I’m gonna agree. Thumbs up. I think it’s a, I think it’s a solid entry into the peach tea category.
Steve: Alright. And I’ll give it three thumbs across the board for all of us. It’s good stuff.
Chris: Alright. All right. Wonderful.
How Kevin Got Into Accessibility
Steve: So, so, Kevin. To jump in can you, give us a little bit of background on how you got into the accessibility field?
Kevin: Yeah. So for me it was kind of by accident. So I. I started this by I had an internship doing accessibility work for a reseller of assistive technology.
I grew up in Michigan, so it was kind of an internship for the Summer. And then they kept me around as an associate ’cause he needed the help. And one of the things that I did there, one of my projects was to help make an app, excuse me, make an app more accessible. So I worked with a company so we could sell, turn around and sell the alarm clock for our deaf blind customers.
It was mainly blind and low vision stuff that we were you know, for the market and but deaf blind was an area we hadn’t really touched it much. So I helped. I basically led the project to help make their app more accessible particularly on iOS. I don’t know if they ever did Android, but on iOS.
And so that was kind of the catalyst for me what got me into it. I had an experience as a student where I, as a student, you just wanna be a student, right? You don’t know what. I didn’t know to what I was entitled, what my, what I could ask for, what I couldn’t ask for. So my access to STEM was not good.
I, you know, doing math was basically with a reader. Bless her, she was great. But doing math verbally for a semester and, you know, two, three times a week, sometimes four or five hours at a time. I’m doing homework is not sustainable. So, I told myself I never wanna have, I would, I want a student to ever have to go through what I went through.
And so that, that’s like my personal piece on it. Why, you know, so sort of those informed my experience going forward and I’ve been largely involved in higher ed since.
Chris: And I’m wondering if we can dig deeper on that, you know, your personal experience and how it’s…
Kevin: Yeah.
Chris: Kind of influenced your leadership and how you approach advocacy. Can we go into that a little bit more?
Kevin: Yeah. So for me, I am a big believer in, especially with accessibility, meeting people where they are. So understanding that I don’t think people are actively trying to sabotage the internet or make it a bad a poor user experience. But I think it comes down to meeting people where they are. People don’t, if you just come in saying here’s all the things you’ve done wrong, they’re gonna get defensive.
That doesn’t usually work like it, it almost never works. So I think it’s critical to meet people where they are and find out what challenges they’re having. As in the people who are, let’s say it’s a developer, right? What they’re trying to do and maybe they’ve never, done access… Maybe they’ve never, you know, heard of accessibility before in this day and age, like you’d be surprised, right?
But maybe they’ve never dealt with it before. So some of that’s, Hey, let’s get, let me show you how this works with a screen reader. That often hits home for people in a way that like, sure, we can look at the inspector and we can play with the code. That’s fun. But if I show you, how this is or is not working for a screen reader, a lot of times you’ll get, Oh wow, I didn’t know.
And then they wanna fix it. Like now. Now we’re getting to a place of understanding where you are , probably not intentionally, you know, you’re leaving out core users or entire groups of people, and now they just wanna fix it. I’ve seen it time and time again with websites, with documents especially when I’ve done stuff working with faculty and sort of groups that support faculty.
And I think you can kind of start, I, you know, here are two or three things you can do right now to kind of make things more accessible. Because then it’s not Oh, wow, I can’t do this. That’s so many things. It’s, oh, wow, that wasn’t so bad. Let’s keep going. So empathy and meeting people where they are probably the biggest things for me as far as this go.
And obviously you gotta know your audience, right? It’s gonna be different whether it’s a developer or an executive. And I’ve been able to tailor my conversations around those things. You know, over the last eight to ten years.
Chris: Yeah. I really like that thing you slipped in there as you were talking about giving things in like bite-sized or manageable chunks versus all at once to avoid creating overwhelm.
I think that’s really important, especially because I’ve seen people just, shut down when they see the size of their accessibility audit or how long the list of issues is. And having to take them and be like, no, you can do this. You know?
Kevin: Yeah.
Chris: But it’s, it tends to be the knee jerk reaction, doesn’t it?
Kevin: Of course.
Chris: Well, I think we want to get into this talk you gave about burnout, bullshit and broken systems as you put it.
Steve: Which is an awesome title.
Chris: Yeah, it’s an awesome title. It got my attention . But before we do that, we’re gonna do a quick commercial break. And we will be right back and get right into it.
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Accessibility Barriers in Large Organizations
Steve: So, as Chris teased before the commercial break you gave this talk with this amazing title, called Bullshit and Broken Systems, Surviving Digital Accessibility in the Trenches. And in that talk, you spoke about some of the barriers that exist in large organizations that block digital accessibility.
Can you share what some of those barriers are?
Kevin: Yeah, of course. I think so. Yeah. Some of the barriers really come down to accessibility, seen as a compliance checkbox more than a as opposed to, you know, it being a core part of what the organization does and kind of seeing it across the board, whether it’s a smaller business or large higher ed institution, whatever it might be. Or government especially you know, but a lot of it comes down to lack of resourcing for whatever reason.
And so those barriers then translate to, it’s very difficult to carry it to, to do the work effectively. Accessibility is often siloed. It’s often, you know, just sort of one person, the accessibility guy, right? Or the accessibility person. That is not sustainable. And on top of it, as a disabled accessibility practitioner, you’re now butting up against, not only are you doing the work for a living, but you have your own challenges.
And that’s not something that you can just turn off at five o’clock. I’ll give a quick example. We’re running into this here in DC probably in Austin too. Last night, I’m part of a group athletic group where we have recreational opportunities that we bring to blind and low vision people in the area. I’m on the board. Anyway, so we went out to eat afterward last night in this, I won’t say the name of the place, but it had a they’re using these kiosks now and they’re just like…
Chris: Yeah.
Kevin: How do you order? Right. So some random lady who was probably just trying to enjoy her dinner you know, offered to help us or help me.
There was a whole group of us and you know, there soda fountain, same thing. I’ve ran into this twice now in the last month. So it’s it’s never just, oh, let’s go get a burrito, or let’s get a slice of pizza. It’s, you know, are they using these touch interfaces? So my point is that this doesn’t just stop at five o’clock.
A lot of us deal with this in housing and medical and yeah, I could go on and on. So…
Steve: Yeah. So like I liked in your talk I mean, you talked a little bit about accessibility being, you know, ’cause like you said, it’s part of your job, but it’s also an advocacy thing too. ‘Cause you want a more inclusive world for yourself and for everybody. I liked in your talk when you were talking about corporations a little bit where you said, if they’re not being sued, they must be doing okay, right?
And that kind of feeds into the undervalued or like your position even being seen as something as important and that needs to be prioritized. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, I thought that was a unique look at it. If we’re not being sued, we’re doing okay. But the reality is…
Kevin: That’s tongue in cheek.
Steve: Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris: But it’s also, I feel like a lot of leaders in certain sectors feel that way. If we’re not being sued, we must be doing okay. Which, I mean, I don’t know, you know, I don’t know what the stats are. Probably nobody’s measured, you know, for every lawsuit, how many grievances or legitimate issues go unspoken or just, you know, they just, the person just moves on. It’s well, never going back there again because they have these kiosks that I can’t use, or they’re not labeling their drinks, so I can’t, I don’t know what I’m gonna, you know, put in my cup. Like any of those sorts of issues. Yeah. Just like you just won’t go back. Right?
Kevin: Yep, yep. Yeah, exactly. Same thing with websites.
Dispelling Common Accessibility Myths
Chris: Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah. And I’m curious too, like with your boots on the ground experience in, in and out of the trenches, but mostly in the trenches. What are some of the biggest misconceptions you’ve seen around digital accessibility in large or small organizations?
Kevin: I think the biggest ones come down to accessibility is hard, accessibility is expensive, it’s gonna take too much time. What is that? It’s all of those things and all of those are easily dispelled. You know, accessibility is not hard, is, it’s not, it’s no harder or easier or no more or less difficult than you know, any other aspect of a project or organizations programming.
If you build it in early, it’s not going to be, you know, it’s just part of what you do, right? Like security, design, maintenance. It’s all part of that. So if it’s tied in early, it’s not hard. It’s just you upskill your team, you train like you do on anything else. You know, and best practices.
It’s expensive. It’s not that’s the other, another thing they’ll say, it’s not really any more or less expensive. Again, if you built it in early and I feel like I’m beating my head against the wall at this point. It’s way more expensive to go in retrofit everything either because you have to, you’re being forced to or whatever, or you’re trying to do it at the end, you find all these bugs or all these problems. Instead of building it into your design and your, in your development pipelines, and obviously the QA and things like that.
So I think in some ways these are self-fulfilling because organizations say it’s too hard, so then they wait till the end. Well, now it’s really hard and really expensive in terms of time and you know, dollars because you waited. And I don’t think that’s, you know, necessarily intentional. I just think that a lot of times organization, it’s not a priority. Right. Until it becomes one and then it’s five alarm. Oh, no. Legal’s mad.
Steve: Right? Right.
Chris: That sounds so familiar.
Steve: It’s reactionary, right?
Kevin: Yeah.
Steve: And I think if organizations could take a holistic approach to it and quite frankly, a lot of it does boil down to prioritization, right?
Like that, the, I don’t know if it’s necessarily always a misconception, but you know, business owners are, they’re distracted with, budgets, money, employees, all kinds of things, right? And unfortunately, accessibility is not always at the top of it, even when you’re building an application of sorts. And so yeah, I mean, maybe it’s a misconception and like you said, they pay for it in the end, right?
The #1 Thing Organizational Leaders Should Know About Accessibility
Steve: Especially if they’re subject to, you know, legal conformance or maybe even future legal conformance. If there was like one thing that, that you could get, like executives or stakeholders in these organizations that you’ve worked at or ones that you’ve consulted for or whatnot, if there was like one thing that you could get them to understand about accessibility, what do you think that would be?
Kevin: Yeah. I’m trying to, I have to think about that. I think, you know, just recognizing, trying to recognize the value in it. Even if it’s, even if right. You know, oh, we have to label our forms. That may not seem like a big deal in at the moment. Right? But trying to think big picture with this.
Okay. That means that somebody can use our checkout or you know, use our shopping card and checkout and that means more sales. I hate to put it that way. I. But you know, businesses are in the business of making money, right? So like, how does this translate to more dollars for them? Right? So thinking about thinking big picture, it may not seem like a big deal that, oh, this text field, it’s labeled and we have to, you know, but often the little things really matter and they add up.
And so I would just encourage people to really think through. I mean, people will come back. You won’t, you know, you’ll, you may not know about it, but you know, it’s a tight community, especially the, for the, I won’t speak for others, but the blind community, especially with screen readers and we talk about what’s the, what websites not accessible and it’s a strong, close knit community and it will make ways around the internet and people will not come back to your business.
And it’s, it you suffer reputational and, brand, you know, you know, so I don’t know. And you lose out on revenue. Like all of those things add up and I just think just trying to understand the value in it which is hard to do. Especially if you’re just seeing it as like a line item or whatever, but, looking, looking ahead, looking, you know, maybe down the road. I don’t know if that’s the one thing I can think of really. It’s hard to do, but…
Chris: if you could get, you know, a bunch of leaders in a room and get ’em to understand that, I think it could transform their businesses in a major way. There is this ripple effect. That happens where it’s, you know, and I think a lot of people think that, oh, you know, if I make these improvements, it’s going to what, affect one or 2% of people, which couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s a much, much bigger number and there’s even subtle ways that it will help everyday people, right?
It’s something that, it would be great if they could understand. So I think that, it was a wise choice, given all the choices. What what’s a time like you do a lot of these kinds of conversations where you’re trying to advocate for this, trying to move an organization towards accessibility.
Creating a Shift in Accessibility Mindset
Chris: Sometimes maybe they’re being dragged, kicking and screaming. I’m not sure. But can you walk us through a time where you like successfully catalyzed this shift in mindset or moved a project meaningfully towards being more inclusive?
Kevin: Yeah, I think I think that’s a great question. Some of my higher ed experience has been where we’ve, I’ve partnered with a, a variety of stakeholders and we’ve, we formed I helped form a sort of cross-functional accessible communications working group. So it was, they had the policy, they had all the things, but it’s translating it into, to actionable steps. So, it led to monthly, excuse me, monthly meetings or almost monthly meetings where people would consistently show up from different areas of the institution and how we could, , everything from social media, even just we started with an access, like a one pager on accessible communications.
And then that, working with sort of the different schools and then that gets, trickle down, ideally trickle down to the different departments and things like that. And having it, with different touchpoints around the institution. Because the thing is right higher ed especially is very decentralized. It’s very big. It’s kind of revolving door. People come, they go, they’re asleep on training day or whatever.
So I think the training and education piece is a really, really big part of it. So that’s just one thing I can think of, accessible communications. And that’s huge, right? Especially at a university where your audience is so broad and so varied.
Really having some clear, actionable ways to communicate with your with your community. I almost say constituents. I’ve been watching the news too much with your community. So that’s one thing I…
Chris: Just to be clear, ’cause I really want to emphasize this point for the viewers and the listeners. What you did was you got a bunch of people from different departments
Kevin: Yes.
Chris: In different sectors of the organization, all into one room to talk about how they could all be more accessible.
Kevin: Yes. And it’s not easy right, like I didn’t just wake up one day going, okay. It’s not easy. You know, and a lot of, you know, people can’t make it. People don’t show up. You have to, you really have to be committed to it. Lots of caffeine can do that, so, no, but I think I, I think yeah, that, that is the thing. And getting people who care. You know, I think some do care more than others, especially if it’s oh, that’s not my job, but it’s all of our jobs. And I stand by that.
Chris: Well, and that’s the cultural shift right there. That has to happen.
Kevin: Yeah. Yeah.
Steve: I mean, that’s a great point too, and I think that segues a little bit to kind of the point that I want to touch on a little bit more is the Bullshit part of your talk. And so I mean, you talked about the emotional toll of this type of work, right? Because it’s so personal and I want to, I want read, I wanna read directly from your slides a little bit on
Kevin: Okay. I was keeping a more PG.
Steve: Yeah. Yeah, that’s we might have to put a flag on this podcast episode.
Going Beyond Burnout
Steve: You say the work is emotionally and logistically draining. Accessibility roles require wearing multiple hats, technical, legal policy, and user advocacy, often with little support or recognition. This imbalance leads to widespread burnout and high turnover in the field. You know, one kind of, you know, what are your thoughts on, you know, expand on that a little bit and two what can organizations do that hire professionals such as yourself? What can they do to support you better?
Kevin: Yeah. Well, in no particular order of importance. So this boils down to like your hiring and it, it starts with that, right? So you have this, let’s say you have an inaccessible application portal or you’re using AI, which guidance has been put out about that. So I won’t rehash it here, but, you know, in terms of hiring if people can’t even upload their materials or it has, or it takes forever and a year to do that, speaking from experience like. Okay, well, how bad is it? You know, what else is wrong?
So this starts with hiring and then interviewing and you know, in the interview practices and how you go about this, because we still look at, as you know, organizations are often still looking at everything through this accommodations lens where, oh, we have to go through this office. And I, while I understand why that’s a thing legally, like it’s very taxing. It’s very draining. So, as someone who has had to go through those processes just to get some pretty basic things to do their job more effectively.
You know, and then on the job, like really, I think there has to be, there needs to be more like, managers and supervisors, you know, people at all levels over an organization really need to be more mindful of and sort of sensitive to different needs and people’s needs. There’s not a lot of people really don’t know how to talk about disability, like at all. It’s one of the reasons that I really helped start the I helped start the disability employee resource group where I’m currently at. And that was huge, you know, a couple years ago.
And they meet every month and sort of communicating this message that like, we’re here, we’re not going anywhere. And it’s a opportunity to, you know, for professional development, for networking and just to commiserate about the state of things, but also it sends a message like we matter. And we’re, we wanna seat at the table. There was another part to your question. I apologize for the, what you.
Steve: No, I mean, I think you touched on it, like what, I mean, you talked about what the organizations can do to help support you in that. And I mean, where it’s your job to, to kind of help, you know, make sure these applications or whatever, you know, websites are accessible. Being heard sometimes, or being validated or that, like your accessibility, say you open accessibility bug. And like having that valued as big as some other technical code bug or whatever.
Do you have any advice that you would give to somebody that would be in a position like that’s feeling burnout?
Kevin: I think. Knowing your worth. And that’s easier said than done. Also, stepping back when you need to. Again, easier said than done, and I could take my own advice but stepping back, right?
And I like when it’s really tough or like most things don’t require an immediate response. You know, either on Slack or email or whatever. So if you’re really in the thick of it or you just got off a really tough call or you know, what the hell am I looking at? You know, this thing is all a complete mess, whatever. Just walk away.
Just walk away from the computer. It’s not worth it. It’s not worth your job. It’s not worth ruining relationships because those, that’s everything. That’s the other thing is like accessibility really comes down to working relationships with people and it’s on the ground.
Like I have a great working relationship with the CIO but I don’t talk to the CIO every day. He doesn’t do accessibility and so it really comes down to people who are editing the pages, who are making the updates, who are, you know, working with their sort of directors and stuff. So you really have to be mindful of the working relationships.
And those are, they’re very, they’re not easy to build, but they’re very easy to screw up. So, you know, just thinking through those things and, you know, asking for help. Everybody is swamped a lot of these places, but there’s no, there’s nothing wrong with asking for help because the thing is everyone’s, you know, supporting each other.
It just, accessibility is one of those things where it feels like you’re kind of on your own island. So, I. You have to make it part of the bigger conversation and just, Hey, I need help. And some of it’s like a practical thing, like as a blind person, there’s no as far as my experience has been, there is no like foolproof 100% perfect way to check contrast, things like that.
Like focus, visibility. There are things that just I need help with, but also I’m swamped and I need help. So, I’m sure others may have different thoughts on that. And. You know, you could, you can find workarounds, but ultimately, like teams support each other. So, yeah.
And find your community. I guess that’s the last thing I really touched on that in my talk as well, which I think is on YouTube somewhere at this point. I think that’s super important. Like you have to really, you know, whether that’s in the field or outside the field, find things you enjoy doing. Like your life should not become work or your work shouldn’t life. Yeah. The, you need to be able to kind of separate. And that’s something I had to really do.
Okay, I’m doing this till 10 o’clock at night. I mean, I get it. We all there are things that happen and deadlines and things like that you just have to get done. But if you can be able to like. Get outside. Like I, I love staying active outside and stuff, so like I started getting into camping and hiking and things like that, and I found people that I enjoy doing it with . We can just kind of exist and there’s no explanations. There’s no justifications like.
You just, we just do. We just do and exist together. So…
Chris: Yeah, sometimes turning the computer off and going and yes, touching grass or listening to birds is a good idea. Yes, for sure. Well that sounds like a great closing thought to kind of end with here, but before we sign off I would be remiss if I didn’t give you the opportunity to let people know how to get in touch with you if they wanna follow up on the conversation or just swap stories if there’s anything you’d like to share.
Kevin: Yeah, of course. Old war stories, whatever you got going on. Email is probably the best, [kevin.andrews94 (at) gmail (dot) com]. I am on LinkedIn. I’m not the best with checking it ’cause it’s just it’s is pretty it’s pretty cluttered at this point. Yeah. In multiple ways.
But yeah, LinkedIn is there. But what email is best? Just reach out, feel free to reach out. And maybe you could put that email in the notes. I’m fine with that.
Chris: Yeah. Okay, cool. Alright, well thank you so much Kevin.
Kevin: Yeah, thank you for having me.
Chris: Yeah, it was an absolutely pleasure coming and we will see you all next time on Accessibility Craft.
Steve: Alrighty. Cheers guys.
Chris: Thanks for listening to Accessibility Craft. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe in your podcast app to get notified when future episodes release. You can find Accessibility Craft on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more. And if building accessibility awareness is important to you, please consider rating Accessibility Craft five stars on Apple Podcasts.
Accessibility Craft is produced by Equalize Digital and hosted by Amber Hinds, Chris Hinds and Steve Jones. Steve Jones composed our theme music. Learn how we help make thousands of WordPress websites more accessible at EqualizeDigital.com.