Can accessibility improvements really generate ROI for a software company? Taylor Walden shares the inside story of LearnDash’s accessibility journey, and how tackling accessibility-related technical debt led to some pretty impressive results that grew their bottom line. If you want to know what those results were, you’ll have to listen!
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Chris: Welcome to the Accessibility Craft Podcast, where we explore the art of creating accessible websites while trying out interesting craft beverages. This podcast is brought to you by the team at Equalize Digital, a WordPress accessibility company, and the proud creators of the Accessibility Checker plugin, and now onto the show.
Amber: Hey everybody, it’s Amber and I am here today with Chris.
Chris: Hey everybody.
Special Guest Taylor Walden
Amber: And of course we have a special guest with us today as well, Taylor. Hi Taylor!
Taylor: Hi. How are you?
Amber: Good. We’re so glad to have you on today.
Taylor: Thank you. For those out there that don’t know me, I started out at GiveWP in 2018. Spoke at several word camps, probably about SEO and ended up as the LearnDash Product Owner at StellarWP last year in 2024.
So that’s why we’re here today.
Amber: We are so excited to have you here today. Of course, we’re gonna talk a little bit more about LearnDash and the accessibility journey that you helped to spearhead over there as a Product Manager.
And for anyone who wants to follow along, you have a great blog post that you wrote about it. They can find that with show notes and a full transcript if they go to AccessibilityCraft.com/150. We start every episode with a beverage. What are we drinking today, Chris?
Today’s Beverage
Chris: I’m particularly excited for this one.
So we are having Austin Eastciders is, oh, the glare on that is horrible with my lights. But Austin…
Amber: Wait, let me try.
Chris: Eastciders is ma…. Oh, thank you both for assisting. It’s making a return to the podcast after quite a long hiatus with a limited release Churro flavored hard cider. So I really like their stuff. Taylor, have you had many ciders before? Is it something you really like?
Taylor: I actually am a huge cider fan. I almost only drink ciders now. It must just be, ’cause I live in an apple area. I don’t know.
Chris: Mm-hmm.
Amber: Do you have breweries or cider…. do they call them cider? I don’t even know what they call them when it’s hard cider around you. Can you get local stuff?
Taylor: It, I think it’s a cidery? Yeah, so I live really close to the Julian beer company and Julian Cider Company in San Diego County. So their cider, the Julian Cider Company is really good. And then there’s another one called Golden State Cider that I think might be from Sacramento that I love.
Chris: We’ll see how the Texas cider measures up and you can be totally honest in your review. Austin Eastciders is the local mainstay cery here in central Texas. So we can crack these open. But they promise that this is going to have some sweet spice and a crisp apple finish.
And I love the art on the can too. It’s got like this whole carnival motif going on.
Amber: Yeah, it’s like turquoise, and reds, and orange, and purples, and stuff. And it looks like the county fair. I will say, I thought it was a little funny. I feel like we should explain what a churro is because I don’t, have you ever had churros Taylor?
Taylor: Well, I’m from San Diego, so…
Amber: Oh yeah.
Taylor: It didn’t occur to me that people might not know what a churro is, but you’re right.
Those of us in the southern part of the US that are close to Mexico, totally know what churros are. But I think that’s not maybe super common in the North or Europe, maybe. I don’t know. Probably not. Maybe, I don’t know.
Chris: Yeah, it’s a fried donut like batter that has a a ridge to it. So it’s like crinkly and then they usually coat ’em in cinnamon sugar. Sometimes you dip ’em in chocolate or dulce de leche, which is like a cooked down caramel, made out of milk. They’re super popular fair food.
Amber: Mexican, right?
Chris: Yeah.
Amber: It’s Mexican.
Taylor: Yeah.
Chris: Oh yeah. It’s, totally. It smells like a churro.
Amber: How funny is it that it’s churro and it’s all like gluten free. Normally, I don’t think churros are… `
Taylor: That is funny…
Amber: …gluten free.
Taylor: No, they’re definitely made of like a lot of flour.
Oh it does smell cinnamony.
Chris: Yeah. It has that cinnamon and it’s definitely cinnamon on the nose, cinnamon forward. I like the flavor. What I find particularly interesting about this flavor, it’s not just apple juice with some cinnamon in it. Like there is a bit of a baked good type undertone and I don’t know how they achieved that just with fermenting apple juice, but…
Taylor: It’s gotta be something with the cinnamon or like there’s gotta be caramel in it or something like that. ‘Cause I taste it too. It’s really good. It tastes exactly like an apple churro.
Chris: Mm-hmm.
Amber: Do they make apple churros? I feel like I’ve never just had like cinnamon…
Taylor: I don’t know, but this is how I imagine it would taste.
Chris: It also kind of makes me think of like you mentioned apple orchards. It makes me think of like the apple cider donuts we would sometimes get in New England when we lived up there with the cinnamon sugar on the outside.
Those are legit good. Do they do…
Taylor: Those are good.
Chris: Do they do apple or cider donuts?
Taylor: No cider donuts, but we have really famous apple pies out here. Like people will fight you for them over the holidays.
Amber: So, you know what I’ll give this that is really interesting is it is pretty dry. It is not sweet. Which people who listen to this podcast a lot know that I’m not a big, like, sweet beverage person. So…
Taylor: I don’t like sweet beverages either.
Amber: It surprised me because I thought for sure the, it’s like warm cinnamon, vanilla cake and toasted sugar is what they said the aroma was. And I’m thinking combine that with apple and I’m like, it’s gonna be too sweet for me.
But I don’t think it’s sweet at all, actually. I really like it.
Taylor: Yeah, I do too. And I also don’t like sweet things when I drink cider. They’re always dry, so.
Chris: Yeah, this is a great limited release and I hope they make it a less limited release and they make this again, ’cause I would totally buy this again.
So maybe that segues us to our not so scientific rating system, Taylor. So you’re uninitiated. Basically we give things individually a thumbs up, thumbs in the middle or a thumbs down. So I’ll lead while y’all think. I think this one is a solid thumbs up for me. I like all of Austin Eastcider’s stuff and even among their selection up there for me this is really quite good.
Taylor: That’s cool.
Amber: Yeah, I’m. I am definitely a thumbs up as well. I will, I would buy this one again. I like it as far as cider go.
Taylor: I also give it a thumbs up. Also, I’m gonna be in Austin in like a month, so I’m probably gonna try to try it again.
Chris: So I feel like I have to ask, you have your local favorites. How does this measure up?
Taylor: I would say it’s probably better than the Julian Cider company I was talking about. They have really good siders, but they tend, their flavored siders tend to be too sweet for me.
Chris: Okay. I am shocked ’cause there’s so much good stuff that comes out of California. I thought for sure that they would’ve won, but well, feather and Austin East Cider’s cap.
Taylor: Well, I would say Golden State Cider probably still wins for me, but that one’s like nationally distributed, so I don’t know if it counts.
LearnDash’s Accessibility Overhaul
Amber: Might not be as craft anymore? Well, of course we’d love to have a drink with you and chat, but we did invite you here to talk a little bit about accessibility as well. We’re gonna talk about behind the scenes of LearnDash’s accessibility overhaul. I think it’d be good to maybe start with, can you tell us more about what prompted the decision to begin a full accessibility overhaul at LearnDash?
Taylor: Yeah. So this answer is a little embarrassing because, it really came down to the EU deadline looming with everybody needing to have their own accessibility in place, all of our customers. So that June deadline in 2025 was huge. And it wasn’t necessarily prioritized on any of the Stellar products at all until leadership made it a priority, if that makes sense.
Amber: Mm-hmm.
Taylor: With LearnDash in particular, at that time we were in a state where it was like. Figure out how to get revenue up. Everybody needs to get revenue up. And accessibility isn’t one of the things that is seen as revenue driving. So it really did take leadership, actually buying in and making it a priority across the company.
Amber: And maybe we’ll circle back at the very end and find out if there was some revenue tied to this, but don’t spoil it now.
Taylor: I won’t.
Chris: All right. So, so leadership has bought in. We’re in the past. Once they made that decision, what did the actual process of overhauling accessibility look like? Like how long did it take? Anything that you can share.
Taylor: Yeah, so we got our accessibility audit from you all, I think at the end of 2024.
At that time, we were in the middle of some other high priority work, so we scheduled it just to kick off in like January, February of 2025. And LearnDash at that time only had like 60 something line items, so it didn’t look that daunting. We kind of drug our feet on it, which later on we regretted.
When we actually kicked off the project, we went through with the engineers who were gonna be responsible for it and marked everything in a spreadsheet, either straightforward and easy or needs a discussion. If it was easy, it went into Jira in the Epic and just, kind of not got forgotten about, but got grouped with work in sprints and went on its way.
If it needed discussion, once we were coming up to that grouping of work, we would talk about it before sprint planning and then I would put it in Jira and it would go through that process too. And one of the things that I think was one of the hardest pieces to accomplish is also balancing your roadmap during this work. So we divided our developer team kind of in half.
And I don’t know if a lot of people know this, but the LearnDash development team was only like four people strong plus a lead engineer.
Amber: How many websites do you know?
Taylor: 150,000 websites.
Amber: Wow. That’s a lot for only four developers.
Taylor: Yes. So quite a lot of websites. Four developers plus a lead engineer. So five.
But the lead engineer, you know, doesn’t really have much time to actually engineer. He loves doing it, but he didn’t have much time. So, the two engineers stayed on the accessibility track and the other two worked on either high priority maintenance or a feature set, and those were paired together so that the feature set being worked on both teams was the same, at the same time.
So each release was like, here’s a bunch of stuff for quizzes. A lot of it is accessibility, but here’s like 15 other things that are either valuable or we fixed that you’ve been asking for. And that told a much better story. So it took about four months and we had. 77 total line items in the change log that I found when I was going back with AI over 11 releases.
So, of course it’s never done. So that was just our initial MVP get this out the door for the conformance report and a couple weeks ago, learnDash was really close to finishing the notes add-on accessibility work as well. So there was an add-on being added into the mix. We initially only did the core product and we’re gonna phase in add-ons.
Amber: Gotcha. So you had mentioned that there were some items in our initial audit of 60 issues that were more difficult and you’re like, these need discussion. I’m curious if you could talk a little bit about what some of those things were that were the most challenging and how you handled those.
Taylor: Two most challenging pieces were course progression and quizzes. So within LearnDash it’s obviously a very old legacy product. There’s a lot of pieces on the front end that are difficult to work with. Much technical debt, but we were working through it and the course progression piece was one of the hardest parts because it’s such an important part of using LearnDash as a student that we didn’t wanna mess it up for current users.
The way that it currently worked with the way that it worked at that time was not accessible. So we made the change and I’ll talk a little bit more about that, what the response to that in a second. But that change was really difficult. I think we went back and forth with your team several times on it.
Amber: So to describe for people, that particular one was that in LearnDash you have the ability to make people watch videos or not, and then they hit like complete to mark a lesson as done. And originally it was you’d mark the lesson as done and then it would just move you to the next lesson and not really say anything.
And we’re like, well, how’s a blind person supposed to know that it worked? That like there’d be a little check mark on the sidebar, maybe that, oh, this one is complete now, and now you’re on the next page. And it’s just like a whole different loss of context and not really knowing where you are and not knowing if what you did worked or not.
Taylor: Yeah.
Amber: So it’s difficult to figure out what does that look like?
Taylor: Yeah, and with LearnDash being built in PHP templates fixing that was not easy. So we came up with a solution that everybody actually hated. We got so much backlash on that change that we had to actually add a setting into LearnDash to turn it off and go back to the old setting. But on it, it says, this is not accessible. Are you sure that you wanna do this?
Amber: So the solution was, it reloads the same page and now shows it as complete with the success message. It says it’s complete now, and then people can click to go to the next lesson manually. Right?
Taylor: So we have, it’s an extra click. And so some people really just wanted that like automatic progression, which just for some reason we could, there was just so much happening with the PHP template. They were like, we’re not gonna be able to fix this without spending six months or do it this way. So it was a really big challenge. And then matrix quiz question type was the other challenge.
Amber: Yeah, I think the way that you handled it though was you came up with a solution that didn’t take forever for you to develop. Fixed accessibility problem, and then you allowed a setting, so then at least the course creator is the one making that choice. And they know whether their website has to be compliant or not. I feel like that’s a good, happy medium on how you dealt with a difficult thing.
Taylor: Yeah, and we took the same approach with the matrix sorting question. We had tons of problems with quiz questions. It took forever to finish the quiz part of the project.
But that question in particular, we left behind because it wasn’t doable without refactoring. So a matrix sorting question is where you’re, you drag and drop answers not in a single list, but in two lists. So you’re dropping answers across different lists, and that is really hard to make accessible with a PHP template.
It just, everything that they were talking about doing would take way too long. And we had already planned a much longer term project to overhaul the entire course builder, which would include quizzes, and then eventually a new front end. So I was like, let’s just leave this. Put a warning on this one too.
People don’t need the matrix sorting question. There’s like 16 question types for now. It’ll be okay. And then the PDF certificate builder too was another thing that just wasn’t accessible and to fix it required replacing the entire library. So that was another piece that was probably gonna be the first piece of the new system we were gonna refactor.
Amber: Mm-hmm.
Chris: And I know we want to get into what the impact was for LearnDash, the company. But before we get into that, I want to ask about the impact on the users of your software for some of these improvements. Is there anything you can share or comment on as far as like how these accessibility improvements improved or changed things for users of the tool?
Taylor: Actually, probably one of my favorite moments at LearnDash was getting an email from a developer thanking us for doing accessibility work and saying that they purchased the product because we were doing that work and being really transparent about it. That was super exciting. I, that’s the only thing that really stands out in my mind. I know that there were other pieces in there but that in particular, just like anecdotally says it all.
Amber: Yeah, I mean I feel like if we just look back at everything that got changed, which I think people could see, we can put in the show notes a link over to the accessibility statement that you had written for the LearnDash website.
And also your blog post summarizes like some of the fixes that were in there. I mean, there was a lot that had to do with keyboard functionality, which would impact both blind people and sighted people who can’t use a mouse or prefer not to use a mouse, labeling of items for blind people. I don’t know.
Can you think of any other things that had big impacts on?
Taylor: The keyboard accessibility was a huge one. One of our developers in particular worked through that a lot. The, there was a couple places where we had color contrast issues that were so bad. I don’t know how they weren’t reported as bugs.
Amber: Oh, like you’re like, I can see normally and I have a hard time reading this.
Taylor: Exactly. So there were a couple things in there that like the color contrast issues made a huge difference. Some of them were subtle, but some of them were like, how was this actually even in here before? It had gotten changed in some way, probably over time and nobody noticed. But I do think that the keyboard accessibility was the biggest piece because tabbing around in LearnDash I didn’t realize was so bad until this project.
Results From Prioritizing Accessibility in LearnDash
Amber: So do you wanna talk about, then on the flip side, you mentioned that you did hear from at least one person who said, we’re gonna buy LearnDash now ’cause you’re investing in accessibility. Can you share any of the other results that LearnDash saw from this accessibility investment and, whether that was like increased revenue or maybe reduced support tickets, or any sort of KPIs that could be tied back to it?
Taylor: Yeah, so, this was one of three initiatives that I think led to these metrics, but one of the primary ones. We, in the first half of 2025 compared to 2024, LearnDash’s support volume, new support tickets went down by 30. So, accessibility was a huge part of that. We had tons of tickets on accessibility. Being able to go back to those folks and say, “Hey, we fixed it!” was amazing. We did another similar project for performance improvements on reporting, but I think accessibility work impacted way more people.
So that 30% support volume dropping is just incredible. We actually ended up losing a couple of support folks last year and didn’t need to replace them because the volume was down.
Amber: Wow. Yeah, that is a huge difference. And that is a great example of like a bottom line improvement that accessibility can bring.
Taylor: Yeah. And then the other metric is refunds. Our refunds were reduced by 42%. So, just insane percentages year over year just by focusing on accessibility in particular. The other piece that we did was auto configuring Stripe webhooks for folks, which did have a high volume of support, but not nearly as much as accessibility.
Chris: That’s really cool. And I think it would be interesting to know if there were any like major lessons or takeaways you had? Or if any, that you can share on behalf of the dev team, maybe? Like what the takeaways were going through that remediation process.
Like things that they would do differently now or that you would do differently with future products.
Taylor: Yeah, I think one of the things that, especially our development team learned a lot about is putting accessibility first. It was something that had been talked about but not necessarily put into practice.
And from that point forward, it wasn’t negotiable. So there was a couple projects that had kind of started before this work and then were lingering and somebody asked, do I need to make this accessible? And I was like, you shouldn’t even be asking me that question. So I think making that a primary product requirement for everything was one of the biggest lessons. ‘Cause you never wanna have to go back. That’s actually a pain.
And then our developers, I think learned that they don’t have to be the expert. They just need to work with the experts and not be afraid to ask questions. So I think for them that was a huge piece of it. ‘Cause there were times when they were just struggling on their own and I was like, why don’t we go to Equalize Digital and ask a question and they would get unblocked very quickly.
And once they started realizing that the work sped up a lot. And then for me, for product ownership and management, getting buy-in from leadership, I think really requires writing the story in your roadmap and making sure that it pairs well with other things. ‘Cause otherwise you are gonna compromise revenue probably.
You do have to actually keep up value while you’re doing this work and it could take a long time for a lot of products. LearnDash actually had very few problems compared to some of the other Stellar brands.
Amber: Mm-hmm.
Chris: I love relating accessibility to other other KPIs that are also important. Because it does have a surprising amount of impact, you’ve observed, on things that you wouldn’t necessarily surface level think are related. Like support or refund volume. It’s like, you know, I don’t think your leadership would’ve guessed that if you had asked them what impact you think this is gonna have. Unless I’m wrong, you can correct me if I’m wrong, but…
Taylor: I think they were just trying to check a box. Not like anything bad on their part, but they had a lot going on and I think they were like, we have to do this. So just get it done. Not really expecting much of an actual ROI on it at that time.
Chris: Yeah.
Amber: Yeah. So a pleasant surprise.
Chris: Totally. And being able to present accessibility in the language that other people speak, particularly decision makers, is so critically important. And something that I’ve spent a lot of time talking to, you know, agency owners and other people trying to advocate for accessibility. Accessibility alone , as much as it should, doesn’t sell itself all that well. But if you can relate it to stuff that people care about, where you have, you know, proof or numbers to back up that, you know it’s gonna have that impact, right? That is so powerful and a great way to advance this cause.
Taylor: Yeah, definitely. There are so many ways you can sell it. I’ve sold it by telling people that it helps with SEO and LLM capabilities because it does. And so you wanna drive more traffic, make your site accessible. It just depends on what they value the most, is really how you have to sell it.
Amber: Yeah. So I wanna dive a little bit more into like lessons learned and things you’re doing differently and what you’re working on now. But we’re gonna take a short commercial first and then we’ll be right back.
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What’s next for Taylor?
Amber: So I teased a little bit before the commercial, but I know you have been working on rebuilding your personal website and you told me that you are doing more with accessibility and you’ve been using Accessibility Checker. And I’m sort of curious now that you’ve gone through this whole process with LearnDash and you’re using Accessibility Checker, like what are you doing differently now that you’re thinking about accessibility?
Taylor: So in the past, honestly, I was not the greatest web developer. So I would just build sites and not really think about accessibility very much. I just kind of eyeballed it and didn’t care.
Amber: How was your site built? Can you share a little bit about that? Just background?
Taylor: Yeah. So on this current site, I implemented Kadence and Kadence Pro template tools. And then I started from scratch and built my own site template kind of. So I was going for a minimalist kind of vibe and it spiraled out of control into this whole fake software repo thing, representing me as a product manager. So it’s supposed to look minimalist, but it doesn’t really anymore. And my goal was to have like high contrast colors, just make sure that it was accessible. Very simple. Don’t use complicated blocks, anything like that.
That did not happen. The more feedback I got…
Amber: !It never works out the way we think it will.
Taylor: It’s so, it’s ridiculous. I was like, I’m just gonna get this site up overnight so that I have something up. And then the more feedback I got, the more out of control it got.
And two weeks later I had this full fledged website with like custom post types on it and everything. So, like multiple custom… It’s a problem. So, I unfortunately thought about accessibility a little bit late in the game this time too, but I did install the checker after I had a couple pages built. Realized I shouldn’t have used a couple blocks that I used, but I mostly passed. So I was excited about that. Yeah, I was really…
Chris: Using Kadence as a starting point was a smart move there too.
Taylor: Yeah. They got a hundred percent.
Chris: Yep.
Amber: And they’re, yeah, a hundred percent on all the things that we tested for the report, and they’re continuing to work through other issues that they’re just having us do auditing for. So, yeah.
Taylor: Cool. Yeah, I love using Kadence. Especially knowing that it was accessible out of the box was a good first step for me. But yeah, so, once I got the pro tool, I did a full site scan. I found some things. I have not fixed them yet, but I will. So, yeah, it’s been interesting.
Chris: Do you have any tips at this stage you would share for anyone who’s working on a new website for accessibility implementation? ’cause it sounds like you’re kind of DIYing, right? You’re in there, you’re doing all this yourself. Like what advice would you give to someone else doing kind of the same thing?
Taylor: Even if you’re not DIYing and you’re working from a design that was passed as accessible, I think it’s really important to install the Accessibility Checker up front and check as you go. When I implemented some tables and tabs, or something that now I’ve gotta go back and figure out where they are and how to make them accessible.
And if I had been checking along the way, that wouldn’t be a problem. Because the backend piece is really what you don’t see in the design, so making sure that it is able to be interacted with by keyboards and a screen reader is really important upfront.
Amber: Yeah, that’s a good point about blocks. I just did a WordPress Accessibility Meetup with Brian Cords and he was using this block for his podcast transcript that just came from Seriously Simple Podcast. And it collapses the transcript and it’s totally not accessible and makes it really difficult for a screen reader user to know how to expand and find the transcript or even a keyboard user that is sighted.
And the solution that we discovered now that 6.9 has accordions, is he should just use that block instead. But this means now he’s gonna have to go back through all his old podcast posts and like copy and paste the content and move it around. So it’s definitely better if you can figure out what blocks are good really early on, then you don’t have to rebuild parts of your pages.
Taylor: Yeah. Or if you’re using a block that’s super custom that you need to use, figure out how to customize it more to actually be accessible before you start implementing it everywhere. ‘Cause that was my biggest mistake.
Amber: Well, so I know you have recently moved on from LearnDash. I’m sort of curious, this is gonna be one of our last episodes of the year, but it will come out before 2026. But do you have anything exciting coming up in 2026, or anything else that you want to share with everybody who’s listening?
Taylor: Yeah, a couple things. So, I did move on from LearnDash and I do have a new position that I’m starting soon. It’s at High Velocity, so hosting entirely outside of WordPress at this point which is different for me.
So that’ll be a fun challenge. I’m excited. And then in my personal life actually David Johnson, the Brand Bard from StellarWP, is moving across the country to California to come be with me. We started dating a couple months ago but we met in 2019 at WordCamp US. So yeah, it’s a WordPress love story.
Chris: That’s amazing!
Amber: WordPress love story, I love that. That is exciting!
Chris: Congratulations on many fronts.
Taylor: Thanks.
Amber: Yeah, that’s really cool. Those were most of the questions that we had planned for today. I don’t know if there’s anything else that you want to share with anyone. We really appreciate you coming on though.
Taylor: No, I think that’s everything. This was one of my favorite projects at LearnDash. Upfront, I was not excited about it, but in the end it became so rewarding. So I’m just happy to get to talk about it.
Chris: Awesome.
Amber: So of course, I guess you may be a little more difficult to find if you’re not working in WordPress land every day.
But where can people reach out to you if they want to follow up?
Taylor: A couple places. So either LinkedIn or my website has a contact form or just contact@taylord.ink which is my website domain. All those are a great place to find me.
Amber: Wonderful. For everybody listening, this is our last episode of 2025, and for the first time ever in the history of the podcast, we are going to take a short break so that we can refine some of our processes and do some of those things.
So there will not be any new episodes in January, but sometime in February we will resume. So just giving you a heads up, but we will be back. Don’t worry, don’t delete us from your podcast app. We will be back.
Thanks so much Taylor, and hope everybody has Happy Holidays.
Taylor: Thanks for having me.
Chris: Thanks Taylor.
Bye everybody.
Taylor: Bye bye.
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Accessibility Craft is produced by Equalize Digital and hosted by Amber Hinds, Chris Hinds and Steve Jones. Steve Jones composed our theme music. Learn how we help make thousands of WordPress websites more accessible at EqualizeDigital.Com.